Summary

After some time off the air, The Red Bucket returns with a narration of a complex electric vehicle (EV) facility construction project in Canada, with Jeffrey Lagendyk of Nor-Lag Coatings helping tell the story. The project included applying intumescent fireproofing under tight deadline pressure in foul weather. Paul introduces a new voice to the podcast.

Timestamps

Click to follow along with the transcript:

•  00:00 - Intro
•  03:10 - Setting the scene in Becancour, Quebec
•  05:55 - Record-breaking rain
•  08:05 - Immediate impacts to application schedule
•  09:08 - Ripple effects
•  11:50 - Benefits of single-componement application
•  13:08 - Qualities of Thermo-Sorb VOC
•  14:24 - A hybrid shop + field application approach is ideal for fast-track EV facility construction
•  18:19 - Ways applicators are valuable resources during pre-construction
•  20:25 - Did Nor-Lag finish on time?
•  21:59 - The four questions (non-technical)
•  26:11 - Closing remarks

Transcript

Intro

Paul Atzemis: Imagine a large outdoor project. It's dependent on decent weather to get all of your application needs done. Now imagine that this is a fast track project, huge mega project, on a tight deadline and no room for change. Now, add to the complication that it literally rains every other day for a month as you're trying to stay on task. And the owner says, we can't move the deadline. How do you make up for all of this lost time? This and many more topics on today's episode of The Red Bucket podcast. So welcome to season two of The Red Bucket podcast. You're going to notice that there's a few things changing in this year's episodes. One of the things that we're going to be doing is storytelling of different projects that Carboline's been involved with over the years. The other thing that you're going to notice is we have a new voice. That new voice is Carboline's very own Toby Wall. Toby, why don't you take a minute, go ahead, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.

Toby Wall: Thanks, Paul. My role at Carboline is content strategist. And that is a content strategist's way of saying that I work in the marketing department. And so my marketing functions, there's a lot of hats that I wear, but one of them, and the one that's relevant to this discussion here, is connecting with folks out in the field, our sales folks, also product line and segment managers here at headquarters to discuss projects to learn about what we're up to out in the world and, tell those stories. Because there's a lot of great stories out there that Carboline is involved in and we want to share those.

Paul: That's an excellent approach and, and if I'm not mistaken, storytelling is kind of some of your background, isn't it?

Toby: Yes, it is. Before I joined Carboline, I was at a business-to-business marketing agency right here in St. Louis, in a very similar role, but for other clients. That agency was very niched into complex industrial- or manufacturing-type areas. Incidentally, a few of my clients early on were coatings clients. This is how—

Paul: Now that's full circle.

Toby: It came full circle. So I, I knew who Carboline was many years ago. Of course, at that time, I wouldn't have thought those folks will, will pay my bills at some point, but here we are. Prior to those years at the agency, I was a newspaper reporter. So everything I've done involves or revolves around storytelling.

Paul: Excellent. Makes for a great transition into a job that involves partly working on a podcast.

Toby: I had to learn very little.

Paul: Some still say that I learned very little as well. So, so I guess with that introduction, let's go ahead and get right into the episode.

Setting the scene in Becancour, Quebec

Toby: So we're going to take a trip to Canada. Let's go to Becancour, Quebec. This is just across the river from Trois Rivières, along the St. Lawrence River. And this little town is one of the epicenters of the global transition toward electric vehicles as automakers are building manufacturing capacity for the EV supply chain.

And in the case of this particular story, General Motors, in partnership with POSCO Future M, is building a large facility to process cathode active materials at this site in Becancour. These are materials that are found in the battery cells that power electric vehicles. And you might have noticed this if you follow construction news, which is that EV related projects tend to be fast-tracked. You might have noticed the government, and any government, not just the United States, is throwing lots of money at people to build these, to ramp up capacity. And I'm telling you all of this, you might be wondering what has it got to do with Carboline.

What it has to do with us is it's our intumescent fireproofing on the structural steel of this General Motors facility in Becancour. The product is Thermo-Sorb VOC, we will talk a little bit more about that later, although I promise this is not a sales pitch. But what I do want to do is narrate this job.

And as we go through the story, you'll see why it is worthy of talking about. The contractor applying the intumescent here was Nor-Lag Coatings. They began their work at Becancour about this time last year. And I spoke to Jeffrey Lagendyk, who is Nor-Lag's principal and Vice President of Operations, about the project, and we started the conversation by talking about the weather. Because the weather at that time of year in Quebec was bad. And by bad, I mean record-breaking bad.

Jeffrey Lagendyk: So we actually mobilized for owner-driven and contractor-driven mock-ups in late May, mobilized for installation on a larger scale starting the first week of June. And that's when the skies opened up and really didn't stop until just after the construction holiday here in Quebec. So, up until the third week of July or the first week of August, we were wearing our swimming trunks and had water wings to get to the site

Record-breaking rain

Toby: All of that rain was a problem. Some intumescent fireproofing materials you can apply in moist conditions, some you cannot. But none can be applied in an exterior setting if it's actively raining or if it's very, very humid. It was a wet summer last year in Quebec and the month of July was particularly bad. I wanted to find out just how bad, so I found the records collected from a weather station at the Trois Rivières airport. And according to that source, it rained 200 millimeters in the month of July, that's seven and nine-tenths inches. And the worst stretch of the rainfall was from the 9th to the 16th of July last year. Within that week, it was close to 112 millimeters of rain, or four and four-tenths inches. There are 31 days in July, and it rained on 15 of those days.

Immediate impacts to application schedule

Jeff: And the issue with these construction projects, uh, especially when you're as close to the river as we are on Becancour, it's not just when it's raining. Ambient conditions can be horrendous when you're pre-rain, post-rain, trying to get the humidity levels under control, poured slabs are holding water, I mean, at one point the culverts and the ditches to try and maintain some sort of access to the site were, were overflowing. It was, it was an astonishing event. Difficult for everybody from the general contractor to other sub-trades and ourselves. So it was an event, and I think we managed it quite well, but it definitely impacted our anticipated production at the front end of the project.

Toby: I think it helps to picture how the structure is being built. Its skeleton is structural steel, and they're going story by story, so you pour a foundation, erect some steel, pour the next floor, erect more steel, pour another floor, and so on. And Jeff explains a challenge that emerged because of how this was being built.

Jeff: So what would happen on a lot of these slabs is, as they're pouring the leading edge, you would end up with a lot of water runoff, so it would be prohibitive to working or even, you know, the preparing that that section of steel for coating. Anything that was on the perimeter of the structure was constantly exposed to this, just, this inundation of rain. So just the, I mean, the volume of rain running down the steel at some points, it looked like somebody was running a fire hose. Obviously, that's prohibitive to any kind of coating.

Toby: Basically, the crews could not prep the steel, much less apply any product to it. And what that amounted to is, no one's making the progress that they needed to make to stay on schedule. And Paul referenced this at the top, it was a tight, tight schedule. And everybody knew from the start, from GM on down, that the schedule was not going to move. It had to stay. There's even more to it besides just the schedule. Off-the-jobsite ripple effects started to emerge.

Ripple effects

Jeff: The Becancour region is not far from Three Rivers in Quebec. It is a tight housing market. It's been very difficult to bring in qualified trained personnel from that region exclusively, so we're obviously bringing people in from all corners of the Quebec market. Many of our in-house applicators are trained specifically for this type of application, but we had to do some in field training. We had to create teams where our task leaders were sometimes partnered with two or three less experienced applicators, teaching them the ways. So our training was also inhibited by the rain, because you get up, you mobilize, you're set up at 7 a.m. or earlier, and then it rains. And then you're calling your shift at noon. Everybody still has housing to pay for. Uh, there's still LOA and board checks to be issued. So costs start to mount. They're not in line with projections in terms of cost or production. So the, you know, we start to panic a little bit in-house because you're looking at the numbers rise, but the production's not. The owner and the general contractor are seeing steel erection move ahead, but very little coating happening in behind.

Toby: So you can probably envision the cost of construction and the pace of construction are way out of balance at this point, compared to what everybody involved had hoped. Nor-Lag sees it, so does the GC, and so does General Motors. Jeff said that those stakeholders started to wonder if Nor-Lag would be able to complete the work. Once the weather broke, which it finally did in August, Jeff's crews went into overdrive. And now's a good time to walk through how the intumescent material chosen for this project, Thermo-Sorb VOC, ended up supporting Nor-Lag in its accelerated pace of production. And the hint is right there in its name, VOC. It's a solvent-based intumescent. Solvent-based will beat water-based in this case because it's field application in exterior conditions. Comparatively less sensitive to moisture in the environment. Thermo-Sorb VOC is also applied single-component, and that was a big deal. I mentioned that to Jeff because I was recalling a conversation I had with one of our sales reps who paid a visit to the site. And they said that they saw the Nor-Lag crews were running 15 or 20 or even 25 pumps at a time.

Benefits of single-component application

Jeff: We used the Mach 4 and the 1595 single legs for this project. And when you mention 15 to 25 pumps, very rarely were we working one section at a time. So you'd probably have to double that. And with that comes, an electrical demand. You know, on top of that electrical demand, you have other trades working, you have the need for fans and airflow and mixing and heaters, all of these things, you know, to maintain temperature, heater blankets for the five-gallon pails. All of this is a draw on, the loading is on temporary structure, essentially, like, none of the infrastructure's in place. By using this type of equipment, it allows for much more flexibility on site. Every now and then there's a power cut-off, but I mean, it's not that difficult to go and find another outlet or another power source or another panel, when you're using a Mach 4 or a 1595. When you're using a plural-component that can be catastrophic, right? All of a sudden you're stuck, you're losing temperature, the lines are blocked up, you know, temporary power fails, and then the generators are out. Well, you're really up the creek.

Qualities of Thermo-Sorb VOC

Toby: Let's not lose sight of why else Thermo-Sorb VOC made sense here, for reasons unrelated to the weather or to its application. For one thing, it does have strong chemical resistance, which you want in a processing plant of this sort, where there is the potential of exposure to chemicals. It has also passed extensive outgas testing, that makes it applicable in sterile or clean room environments. In EV facilities like this one, but also computer chip facilities or laboratories or any place that supports a sensitive process, you're going to want that because it's important to minimize unwanted compounds in the air. It is also a much thinner film and a heck of a lot lighter than anything cementitious in nature. And to put that in perspective, the Nor-Lag team applied fireproofing to 850,000 square feet of structural steel. That's 79,000 square meters. That's a lot of area. And if this was cementitious, that's a lot of extra weight. Now I want to talk theory for a moment. This was a field application of intumescent fireproofing, and you'll see this debate in the industry of whether field application or shop application is better. Jeff's answer to that question is, you should do both.

A hybrid shop + field application approach is ideal for fast-track EV facility construction

Jeff: The instance, or the occurrences of this past summer really drive me to believe that any of these fast-track EV or fast-track applications in the field are best served in a hybrid approach. Anytime you're in a project, any construction project, whether it be large commercial, institutional, light industrial, it's not a seamless approach. It's not a seamless process. You come across problems, you come across modifications, you come across, whether it be, weather conditions, whether it be, reissued drawings, missed details, supply issues. Nothing, nothing ever goes to plan. And so when you're working with a field-applied material and you have the flexibility to go back or jump forward in phases, all it does is save time on that bottom line on that schedule, which translate directly to profit margin and money for the owner, right? It also allows for a certain amount of field-incurred damage to be repaired relatively quickly, which is, again, a massive time savings. If you can go back with a two or three man team and correct, you know, hundreds of locations equivalent to a few thousand square feet, and not have to add it into the schedule, just say that it was part of our process, and not impede other trades from doing their work while you're doing that. All of that is value added and time saving. So, as far as the field applied component, I think that that's, you know, the real the real benefit. The perimeter, again, the reason I believe the perimeter or any complicated component in terms of application regarding maybe its access, could need a mechanical room that's going to be fast-tracked, or electrical installations, that may be where shop applied and touch up is the fastest way to go about it. Get that exterior steel up so the curtain wall and paneling can be installed, which allows you to control conditions a little more readily and a little more quickly, as opposed to waiting for the installation of the intumescent on those exterior portions. These are all ideal moments for shop apply. Even though you'll have to go back, rework the connections, make sure that any incidental damage, you know, whether through blocking or chaining or, you know, erection, it all has to be repaired eventually, but it's not inhibiting the forward progress of the project. All of that can occur simultaneously with the field application. So, that's why I'm a proponent of the hybrid, and that's why I believe that it's the most economical way for these fast-track EV plants to move forward.

Toby: Jeff's opinion pretty much matches ours at Carboline. Shop application does have its advantages and disadvantages, and the same is true with field application. Which is better is a trap that we don't need to walk into because we make the products that you would apply in either case, so we're happy to skip that and instead just talk about which is the right method for this project. And the hybrid approach that Jeff mentions is responsible, it's resilient, and it's resistant to shock. In a fast-track project like this, it's going to have its fair share of risks of shock. While you cannot eliminate all of those risks, you can approach material selection and application in a way so that when something happens beyond your control, you're not losing control. Now, like I said, that's theory. What matters in practice is showing stakeholders how manufacturers like us, or contractors like Nor-Lag, can be helpful to decision makers on the front end. And as you'll hear Jeff say, the key is giving decision makers resources so that they can effectively decide.

Ways applicators are valuable resources during pre-construction

Jeff: It's just, it's a matter of full disclosure on material performance, application rates. You know, at one point, we were putting 250 pails of material up daily, right? Regardless of being impeded. So, when they understand what production is possible, what will slow down or impede that progress, it becomes a matter of decision making on their part. There's always going to be give and take. And it's just to say that as long as they're aware of what the procedures and processes are, what the production rates can be, what the limitations are to the product, what the limitations are, or the impact would be on subtrades working around them, it allows for an eyes-open approach to their schedule. And that way, nobody's disappointed. So, unfortunately, that traditional thought that, well, you know, it's just paint, is a little bit antiquated. I'm starting to see some of the major contractors and some of the major consortiums open their eyes to that fact. I'd like to see it be much more widely received, but again, especially intumescent applications, it's important that be addressed at the front end. I mean, it doesn't always have to be a negative impact. It can be a positive impact as well. You can tell the owner that you're going to accelerate their delivery schedule because we, you know, we've created a process that we believe is more effective. So I don't want it always to sort of end up being just because there's complications on site that it has a negative connotation, right? Sometimes pressure creates diamonds too.

Toby: I really loved what Jeff said there about diamonds. Because in our conversation, I had a doom and gloom approach. I was worried about the terrible weather. I was asking about the delays. We were talking through all of the problems but the story I heard was not about failure, was not about problems. It was about getting it done. It was a story of the Nor-Lag crews really doing their best to get caught up so that they could meet this very tight deadline, which is the question. Did they meet it?

Did Nor-Lag finish on time?

Jeff: With our accelerations from August onwards, we managed to deliver almost a week and a half ahead of schedule. We're very proud of what we've accomplished because it has not been achieved prior to this in the Canadian market, this volume in this time frame, under exposed conditions. So, we feel that we performed, we feel that the product performed, we feel that the coordination and the project, despite all of the difficulties that it was presented with, came together and in the end, PABM was able to deliver the project on time. And, all of the future retrofitting that's occurring, is demonstrating that product selection for this particular project, that was on point. And all of the feedback we received from the owner, and PABM to this point in terms of our application, has been extremely positive.

Toby: That would be my reaction too. A tremendously difficult start to the project, but Nor- Lag beats its deadline by a week and a half anyway. Clearly these folks know what they're doing. If we were live, this is the part where I would thank Jeff for a really great conversation. We're not live with Jeff, but I'm still grateful, and I hope we can have Jeff come back sometime. If you want to learn more about Nor-Lag, or see some of the other projects that that team has executed, then I think you should visit norlag.ca, N-O-R-L-A-G dot C-A.

"The Four Questions" [Non-Technical]

Paul: All right. So in closing, now that we've had such a great story, you've gotten an introduction into Toby. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, as we round out our previous season of what we did with The Red Bucket podcast was, we asked some questions, just to get a little bit more to know the people that are on the episode. So since this is Toby's first time on, we're going to hit him with those same four questions. I guess we can start with what's your favorite sports team.

Toby: Ooh, we are in St. Louis, Paul. And so everybody in town will be thrilled to know that I'm a Chicago Cubs fan.

Paul: So fortunately I am not a St. Louis native either. So, you know, you're in friendly territory here, although I like the Cardinals, they're my national league team. It's not, I'm not going to throw anything at you here.

Toby: I appreciate that. I would say too, even as a Cubs fan and spending most of my life with the Cubs being at the bottom of the National League and getting whipped by the Cardinals every time we came out, I always admired how the Cardinals played small ball.

Paul: Yes.

Toby: And the Cubs have seemed to try to find someone who's going to hit 50 home runs every year and build their teams around that.

Paul: And sometimes they did well with that.

Toby: Sometimes.

Paul: Yeah. So I guess on that theme, If you had a walk-up song, whatever it is that you're doing, whether you're WWE or, or a baseball player, what's your walk-up song? What, what kind of music would you like to listen to?

Toby: Well, I can answer that by saying I did have a walk-up song.

Paul: Nice.

Toby: And this was in my baseball years during the regional tournaments, at the end of the season, which would, if you won all of those, you'd go to state. And this was the one time of the season where they would bring somebody out with a little amplifier and an iPod and if they, if you wanted a walk-up song, they do one for you. So I had one, and mine was "Cities On Flame With Rock And Roll" by The Blue Oyster Cult.

Paul: So you had to walk real slow to get up to the plate, huh?

Toby: Lots of practice swings, stretching, taking all the time I could because there's a drum fill in there.

Paul: Yeah. That's what you were aiming for.

Toby: You got to wait for it.

Paul: Yep. Right. So a little lighter, less, a little less active. What's your favorite movie, TV show? What kind of genre of stuff do you watch when you have a minute?

Toby: Tough one for me because even though I consume those media, I don't know that those resonate so much with me. It's not something I keep coming back to it. So if you asked the same question about books, I'd have answers for you. I did sink a lot of time into Game of Thrones when the HBO adaptations were on.

Paul: Did you watch them live or did you watch them in a binge fashion?

Toby: I had to binge the first handful of seasons because I was late to the game.

Paul: So even you were more current than I was. I watched the first episode several times over several years. I didn't sit down and watch them all until season six.

Toby: Oh, wow.

Paul: So I had five seasons to binge. Man, was that a fantastic way to watch the show! However, a fantastic way to lose months of time, because that was all I wanted to do every night.

Toby: No one got anything done.

Paul: No, they didn't. Okay. So speaking of getting things done, what kind of hobbies, what, what interests you when you're not, you said reading, you know,

Toby: I read pretty much at all times. So, I just read an interesting history of zoning.

Paul: I, I think you might be the only person who says that's an interesting read.

Toby: It could be true, but I'll stick to it because it is fascinating to me. I'm all across the board. Histories, certain fiction I like, non-fiction I like. The library loves me.

Paul: I've, I've never been one to sit and read in large quantities. I do audiobooks. I listen to a ton of audiobooks, but reading I feel like, I get a lot of technical documents are not fun or fast reads. And it kind of burns me out on that hobby reading side of it. So, yeah, that's, that's been my weakness as an adult of not reading much.

Toby: In a job like yours, Paul, you probably read all the time just as a matter of having the job you do. So I would say you're a reader too.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Toby: Just reading different things.

Paul: Just not as enjoyable of a mindset.

Toby: Or topics as enjoyable as zoning, right?

Closing Remarks

Paul: That's right. So with that. I say welcome to Toby onto the podcast and he's going to be the main voice you hear on most of these episodes. And I'll be a guest speaker in here from time to time as we have different topics that we need to talk to, or different interpretations depending on who the guest is, but our main host moving forward in season two, um, Toby's going to take it away. So welcome aboard and glad to have you and looking forward to a great season.